It’s All Over! When a heritage morning show ends.
Lessons from Marilyn Denis, Kyle & Jackie O and the delicate moment every radio programmer eventually faces.
On-air personalities are what make radio special.
I’ve always believed that a very large part of the magic of radio lies in the voices behind the microphones. As a programmer, I was obsessed with finding the very best talent and helping them become even better. Of course, the ironic thing about great talent is that they often make you better in the process. The best performers tend to teach us more than we can ever teach them.
My fascination with on-air performers eventually led me to become Canada’s first national in-house talent coach. Later, even as an executive running a radio company, I encouraged our teams to prioritize attracting, nurturing, and investing in the very best talent we could find. After all, great talent is the lifeblood of this business.
Throughout all my roles, the thought of losing a personality or show that had deeply connected with an audience sent shivers down my spine. It’s a tale as old as time in radio; lose a highly recognizable personality or show, especially in mornings, and ratings & revenue will almost certainly feel the impact.
I always tried to remind myself that great personalities often become the glue between a station and its audience. Lose them, and things can quickly become unstuck. I’m proud of the talent roster we developed and built while working at Rogers - there are some big hitters and some soon to be big hitters on that roster. Personalities matter.
That’s why moments like the ones we’re seeing right now always make me stop and think. Two of the most beloved morning shows around the world appear to be coming to an end.
In Australia, the very high-profile, Kyle & Jackie O show hosted by Kyle Sandilands and Jackie O Henderson on KIIS-FM in Sydney has, seemingly, come to a dramatic, and somewhat unexpected, conclusion. In Canada, Marilyn Denis has announced she will retire from the morning show on legendary CHUM-FM this summer after forty years. Yes, 40!
Kyle and Jackie O have been together on the air for over 25 years, dominating Sydney ratings first on 2Day FM and later KIIS-FM. Marilyn Denis has been part of mornings on CHUM for four decades, helping the station perform well in Toronto ratings for years.
Two legendary shows. Two different endings.
Kyle and Jackie O’s show appears to have ended following an explosive on air confrontation between the hosts. Their contract was supposed to run until 2034. The show has built a reputation, Kyle especially, for being unfiltered and sharing absolutely everything on the air. It was a controversial show with the illusion that the hosts had thick skins. This wasn’t the first time the two had argued on the air together, but no one expected it to be the final straw. Apparently it was for Jackie. ARN the parent company of KIIS FM said in a statement that Jackie “has given notice she cannot continue to work with Mr (Kyle) Sandilands”. I don’t know what was happening behind the scenes nor am I in a position to pass judgement on whether this latest argument went too far. What I do know is that this was a surprising and dramatic ending to one of Australia’s greatest morning shows.
Marilyn Denis, on the other hand, was able to announce a graceful and well-deserved retirement. Marilyn was able to go on the air, in advance, and share her decision. You can watch Marilyn announce her decision here.
Both shows are deeply woven into the hearts of their audiences and the fabric of their cities. It’s not hyperbole to say that both endings mark the closing of major chapters in radio, however the way things are playing out highlights the very different ways a heritage morning show can end.
When a heritage morning show disappears, stations often assume they’ve simply lost a host or a show. However, they are often losing something much bigger…
Habit
Trust
Shared moments
Sense of community
A daily rhythm in people’s lives…
Morning radio occupies a strange place in media. It’s entertainment, yes, but it’s also companionship. I’ve been fortunate to work around successful morning TV shows as well and I can tell you that the passion and intimacy around morning radio is unrivalled. When it’s done well it creates a special, almost unbreakable, bond between the hosts and the listeners.
Think about it, listeners wake up with the same voices every day. They hear about the host’s lives, their frustrations, their jokes, their families. Over time those voices become part of the listener’s routine. Which means when a show ends, listeners often experience something programmers and radio execs sometimes underestimate…
An emotional disruption.
If you’ve ever sat through listener focus groups or research studies after a major talent change, you’ll know exactly what I mean. People don’t always articulate it clearly, but they sure feel it.
The planned exit.
When a heritage host/show announces a retirement well in advance, a station is given something incredibly valuable, time. They have time to prepare the audience, time to celebrate the hosts and time to introduce what comes next.
The BBC demonstrated this beautifully when Terry Wogan stepped away from the national breakfast show on BBC Radio 2 in 2009. Growing up in the UK, I can tell you that Wogan had been a national treasure (actually he was a national institution). The BBC didn’t quietly replace him instead they celebrated him. They turned his final shows into a celebration with listeners, guests and colleagues sharing memories and tributes. They aired classic moments from the show. They introduced a weekend version of the show, so Terry would still be part of the station’s story. Most importantly, they gave Terry the chance to say his goodbyes to an audience he loved. Terry’s final words beautifully captured the magic of the relationship between hosts and listeners, “thank you for being my friend.”
Then when Radio 2 introduced Chris Evans as the new host, he was never positioned as a replacement for Wogan but as the beginning of a new era. A smart move, as trying to replace what was once there is often a misguided strategy – it’s like trying to make your partner be more like your ex. It doesn’t work well. In this clip you instantly notice the change in energy between Terry and Chris. Worth noting that Chris’ backstory is somewhat different from Terrys as well. Chris wasn’t completely unknown to the Radio 2 audience as he was already the afternoon drive host and was a well-known name in British media.
Lessons when a heritage show retires.
If a show’s ending is planned, there are a few things programmers should think about…
First, make the moment meaningful. Heritage shows deserve proper farewells. Listener stories, special broadcasts, high profile guests and revisiting classic moments remind audiences just how much the show meant to them. Look beyond the mornings and ensure the station celebrates the show and it’s hosts as well. Consider farewell marketing and promotions. The audience expect you to show the show/hosts respect and gratitude. There is an adage about judging a workplace by how they send you off when you leave not by how they welcome you when you join and it applies here. At the beginning of a new show there is excitement and plans – it’s an event. The final chapter needs to be even bigger!
Second, introduce the next voices/show gradually (if you can). One of the biggest mistakes radio makes is the overnight switch. If you can, allow the audience to get comfortable with the new hosts before the change happens; introduce regular segments with them so they start to integrate into mornings, have the show provide holiday cover for the outgoing host/show. Build a plan that has the outgoing host/show hand the baton over to the new hosts/show - this type of endorsement goes a long way.
Third, control the narrative. If a station doesn’t tell the story, the audience will create their own version of it. Listeners should understand why the host is leaving and what the next chapter looks like. Be open, be real, reflect the emotions and share in the celebration.
Finally, preserve the legacy. A forty-year show is a cultural archive that shouldn’t disappear the moment the host leaves. Radio 2 introduced a weekend version of Wogan to preserve the legacy. Maybe the show’s podcast lives on or a new podcast with the show launches. Perhaps a DAB/internet station reliving all the classic moments of the show can be launched. Perhaps there is annual specialty programming from the host. Maybe some elements from the show can live on like the charity work or favorite segments. Honoring the heritage can go a long way, and for a long time.
When things end suddenly.
Of course, not every exit is planned. Sometimes things blow up as we’re seeing with Kyle & Jackie O. To be fair, radio history is probably filled with more of these moments than the planned departures. Sadly.
Think back to when Howard Stern left terrestrial radio in 2005, millions of listeners followed him to Sirius XM. This was actually a unique situation as the audience knew it was coming, mainly because Howard spent a lot of his terrestrial show promoting his move to satellite. He did disappear overnight from some of the terrestrial stations who pulled the show as he promoted his departure to satellite radio. Around 2 million listeners followed Stern to satellite which grew their subscribers from their 600,000 base. It was a clear demonstration that personality loyalty can outweigh station loyalty. When I worked closely with Roz & Mocha at KiSS 92.5, I always felt that the loyalty of their audience outweighed the loyalty for the station and therefore I was adamant that losing that show would immediately impact business.
Heritage shows that people are passionate about really are the silver bullet for some stations.
Stations dealing with sudden departures face a completely different challenge. In these situations, you don’t have months to plan, you’re lucky if you have days. Often, it’s just hours.
Lessons for when a show implodes.
The first rule is simple, communicate quickly (well as quickly as you can). Listeners notice immediately when a voice or show disappears. Silence from the station only fuels speculation. Today that speculation isn’t contained to “around the kitchen table” but rather it spreads quickly across a multitude of touchpoints. Audiences and clients will spot the silence.
Second, stabilize the product. In the interim your best solution may be to retain as much of the show’s structure as possible; try and remain familiar during the transition. Ask yourself, what segments and elements will bring the audience comfort?
Third, use familiar voices. Perhaps there are regular contributors or producers who can continue to play a role. Other recognizable hosts from the station may provide continuity while you’re searching for a longer-term solution.
And finally, don’t rush the permanent replacement. This is usually where Radio makes a mistake. We forget that great shows don’t simply emerge, if they did, I’d have more wins on the board as I’m sure many other programmers would attest to as well. It takes time to build a great show, allowing the chemistry to develop naturally. In a moment of panic, desperately wanting to protect audiences and revenues, we can force ourselves to make the wrong decision. When Kyle & Jackie O left 2DayFM for KIIS in late 2013, there was panic… I’ve counted 10 iterations of morning shows on 2dayFM over the last 12 years. That doesn’t build confidence or continuity with an audience or a customer base. Rushing the replacement is like losing twice.
As an aside, every station and every company should be able to point to a potential successor in their stable. The show/host might not be ready when the time comes but there should be work happening to develop an internal successor. You should also have a relationship with a couple of competitor shows that could be potential successors. If you aren’t seriously developing options all the time, then you’re letting everyone down. Always be prepared. Did I have some ideas to replace Roz & Mocha if I needed to? Yes, but I worked hard to make sure we wouldn’t need them!
When a heritage show ends, one uncomfortable question always surfaces. Was the audience loyal to the station or the show? If the hosts are bigger than the brand, transitions become much harder.
Remember, morning shows will always come and go. Nothing lasts forever. Some exits will be graceful, and some will be chaotic. The stations that handle these moments well generally tend to…
Honor the past
Communicate clearly
Use the moment to build the next chapter of the brand
Change isn’t easy. I’ll be listening closely to CHUM to see how they honor the departure of Marilyn Denis. I’ll also be watching KIIS FM to see how the Kyle and Jackie O story unfolds.
If there’s one thing radio has taught me over the years, it’s when a heritage morning show ends, the real story is only just beginning.
Radio, never a dull moment! (Wasn’t that an old marketing tagline we used in the Midlands!?)